Knowing what we know now, should we have let Saddam rule Iraq?

[TL_Diplomat]

Should we have left Saddam in Power knowing:

1. There are no WMDs

2. He would prevent the massive daily killings

3. Saddam (Iraq) could help serve as a proxy for Iran (again) :noes:

[upparoom]

Just because we havent found the big stockpiles, doesnt mean they dont exist. It just means we havent found the really big ones.

He wouldnt have prevented anything. Sadam ordered millions killed and he would have continued to do so.

Iraq and Iran had some differences, they wouldnt have worked well together, but they would have worked if Iran was funding their terrorists activity

[TL_Diplomat]

so you genuinely believe that there is some stockpile of wmd's out there?

Saddam might have ordered millions killed, but going into Iraq in 2003, the invasion caused some 650,000 deaths in 5 years...

With regards to Iran, i'm sure the US could of lifted the sanctions on Iraq as a way to normailze relations with Iraq, and had saddam spy in iran for them.

[trev ftw]

Saddam ordered hundreds of thousands killed.


But I never supported taking him out of power anyways. It's not my problem, nor the our country's. The only country he remotely posed a threat to was Israel, but Israel could've wiped Iraq off the map with ease.

[Thantos]

Saddam ordered hundreds of thousands killed.


But I never supported taking him out of power anyways. It's not my problem, nor the our country's. The only country he remotely posed a threat to was Israel, but Israel could've wiped Iraq off the map with ease.
Agreed 100%. We invaded Iraq because we didn't like the way he was ruling the people... But the last time I checked, we didn't live in Iraq. Why do we worry about other people when we have problems of our own to worry about here? I fucking hate politicians. All they do is make it seem like they care about what you think and make it seem like you have a voice, when in reality, all they are doing is lining thier blood soaked pockets with money.

[JRock10]

No, I don't think we should have left him in power if we were going to take action.

I do believe that we should stop trying to rein Isreal in and let them whoop ass and take names in the middle east. bust some of these fools up, and I'm guessing things might settle down a bit.

[TL_Diplomat]

No, I don't think we should have left him in power if we were going to take action.

I do believe that we should stop trying to rein Isreal in and let them whoop ass and take names in the middle east. bust some of these fools up, and I'm guessing things might settle down a bit.

Do you understand that the creation of Israel is the reason why dictators like Saddam, Ahmedinejad and Assad and the extremists like Hezbollah and Hamas are accepted in the Middle East?

[trev ftw]

Do you understand that the creation of Israel is the reason why dictators like Saddam, Ahmedinejad and Assad and the extremists like Hezbollah and Hamas are accepted in the Middle East?

Saddam wasn't accepted because of Israel. Most of his Islamic counterparts hated him as well. A lot.


But the rest is true.. kind of.

It is a good reason for them to dislike us strongly, but there's always been a distaste between Christians and Islamic peoples.. because religion is retarded by default. It's not something new.

Leaving them all the fuck alone would be a pretty good start, though.

[TL_Diplomat]

Saddam wasn't accepted because of Israel. Most of his Islamic counterparts hated him as well. A lot.


But the rest is true.. kind of.

It is a good reason for them to dislike us strongly, but there's always been a distaste between Christians and Islamic peoples.. because religion is retarded by default. It's not something new.

Leaving them all the fuck alone would be a pretty good start, though.

I was trying to get at something else...the only reason why Hamas and Hezbollah even exist is because of Israel. The only reason why Iran has a wacko president and is probably seeking nukes is because of the Israeli threat.

Saddam wasnt liked by his neighbors because he was the only one who had enough balls to stand up to the US and Israel. The others were cowards who wanted Saddam to go away because they wanted to live in a more stable region. I don't blame them, but I think the main reason why Bush went to war in Iraq was to keep Saddams oil rich neighbors happy.

[More&Faster]

hell yes we should have left him in power. this war was a colossal waste of money. no good came of it.

[trev ftw]

I was trying to get at something else...the only reason why Hamas and Hezbollah even exist is because of Israel. The only reason why Iran has a wacko president and is probably seeking nukes is because of the Israeli threat.

Saddam wasnt liked by his neighbors because he was the only one who had enough balls to stand up to the US and Israel. The others were cowards who wanted Saddam to go away because they wanted to live in a more stable region. I don't blame them, but I think the main reason why Bush went to war in Iraq was to keep Saddams oil rich neighbors happy.

That may be true, but he also wasn't liked by them because he was secular rather than devoutly religious.

For all you Zionists out there:
Iran has a ton of Jews living in it, and the government actually recognizes/appreciates them. Iran is anti-Zionism, not anti-Jew. It's like an American being anti-Bush/neocon, but not anti-America.

[burmite]

Saddam was the only force keeping the country together. Without him, we're going to be in there for who knows how long despite what Hillary or Obama campaign about.

[JRock10]

Do you understand that the creation of Israel is the reason why dictators like Saddam, Ahmedinejad and Assad and the extremists like Hezbollah and Hamas are accepted in the Middle East?No, I never really thought it through that much. I didn't research anything about it either. It was pretty much my uninformed assumption that the Muslim Middle East hated Isreal because of Judaism. Do you have any more ellaboration on the subject? I did read on down through the thread, and there is some information, but I just wanted to see what else you wanted to add.

[trev ftw]

Most Arabs hate Zionist Jews; not Judaism itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

That's the most unbiased source I can find. :hsughno:

You must realize that there are good Zionists who just want a home for Jews, then there are(and these are the ones in power, much like batshit insane Arabs/Bush :mamoru:) ones who do not mind blowing the shit out of people.

There are also a lot of Jews who are against Zionism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism

[trev ftw]

http://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm

That's not "bad". It's biased, but for the most part factual.

[TL_Diplomat]

No, I never really thought it through that much. I didn't research anything about it either. It was pretty much my uninformed assumption that the Muslim Middle East hated Isreal because of Judaism. Do you have any more ellaboration on the subject? I did read on down through the thread, and there is some information, but I just wanted to see what else you wanted to add.

Before the European Jews immigrated to Palestine fleeing the Holocaust and created gangs to kick out the indegious Arabs. Palestinans and their neighbors were Muslims/Jews/Christains, and still are to a certain extent. The Jews were Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. The new Jewish immigrants were Ashkenazi, who put down the other Jews and made them second and third class citizens, and they still are in the State of Israel today.

The displacement of 750,000 Palestinans in 1948 by Jewish Gangs has created 6.8 million refugees and their relatives today. These 6.8 million people live all over the world, many of whom live in the Middle East. This has spawned a just hatred of Zionist Jews who think they are more worthy than anyother human being. The Evangelist movement in the United States has supported these Zionist Jews and are the life blood of the occupation and denial of Refugees right of return, espoused in the 4th Geneva Convention and reaffirmed in the UN Security Council Resolution 242. The Zionists in Israel have created colonies in the land Israel has been occupying since 1967 and has displaced more Palestinians as a result of their land being stolen by the Israeli government. A violation of the 4th Geneva Convenion and reaffirmation in UN SC Res 335/ 446 and 1515; the international court of Justices 9 July 2004 Advisory opinion.


Now you tell me, if you were one of those people who lost their land/loved ones due to the zionist movement, would you support those who fought against the zionists, like Hamas, Hezbollah and Saddam at one point?

I know if those Zionists wanted California as their Jewish Homeland, and wanted to kick out all Californians who have the legal right to live there; I know damn sure that every American would be outraged.

Let me know if you want to know anything more specific, this is my specialization.

[omghi2u]

Should we have left Saddam in Power knowing:

1. There are no WMDs

2. He would prevent the massive daily killings

3. Saddam (Iraq) could help serve as a proxy for Iran (again) :noes:

Yes, we should have.

1. We know there are no WMD's. The bush administration, the pentagon, and the CIA (all liberal hippy anti-war people obviously) all released statements and memos acknowledging that he did not have his weapons anymore and that we will not find any of these weapons.

2. Link to massive daily killings he was performing? Only ones i remember were in the mid 1980s when we gave him the chemical weapons, we gave him intelligence on Iran, and we gave him money to keep his military strong. He stopped doing it before the first gulf war, and most certainly did not do it after the first gulf war.

3. The moral of the story regarding this whole situation is that we will side with dictators when it suits our geopolitical interests. When they do not meet our needs we remove them. This does a variety of things on the international level, including making our country look like a hypocritical red white and blue asshole. This has been our foreign policy approach since the end of world war 2 and our foreign policy has probably been the number 1 cause of terrorism. You can't invade countries, remove leaders, add leaders, and basically use other countries as pawns and not have any blow back. You will piss off some people.

[TL_Diplomat]

Yes, we should have.


2. Link to massive daily killings he was performing? Only ones i remember were in the mid 1980s when we gave him the chemical weapons, we gave him intelligence on Iran, and we gave him money to keep his military strong. He stopped doing it before the first gulf war, and most certainly did not do it after the first gulf war.




You should re-read what I wrote about #2. SADDAM WOULD PREVENT MASSIVE DAILY KILLINGS.

i.e. the daily suicide bombings after occupation.

[omghi2u]

No, I don't think we should have left him in power if we were going to take action.

I do believe that we should stop trying to rein Isreal in and let them whoop ass and take names in the middle east. bust some of these fools up, and I'm guessing things might settle down a bit.

they have been fighting for 1000s of years. the only thing that would stop their fighting is people refusing to buy their energy source. If we said "fight, and you lose our 14% that we need" (which is tens of billions) they will stfu and play nice. they have been fighting over religion and always will unless they reach some age of enlightenment.

[omghi2u]

You should re-read what I wrote about #2. SADDAM WOULD PREVENT MASSIVE DAILY KILLINGS.

i.e. the daily suicide bombings after occupation.

re-read and noted. i just jumped to the conclusion of the standard war defender of "saddamn being a terrible person"

[JRock10]

Before the European Jews immigrated to Palestine fleeing the Holocaust and created gangs to kick out the indegious Arabs. Palestinans and their neighbors were Muslims/Jews/Christains, and still are to a certain extent. The Jews were Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. The new Jewish immigrants were Ashkenazi, who put down the other Jews and made them second and third class citizens, and they still are in the State of Israel today.

The displacement of 750,000 Palestinans in 1948 by Jewish Gangs has created 6.8 million refugees and their relatives today. These 6.8 million people live all over the world, many of whom live in the Middle East. This has spawned a just hatred of Zionist Jews who think they are more worthy than anyother human being. The Evangelist movement in the United States has supported these Zionist Jews and are the life blood of the occupation and denial of Refugees right of return, espoused in the 4th Geneva Convention and reaffirmed in the UN Security Council Resolution 242. The Zionists in Israel have created colonies in the land Israel has been occupying since 1967 and has displaced more Palestinians as a result of their land being stolen by the Israeli government. A violation of the 4th Geneva Convenion and reaffirmation in UN SC Res 335/ 446 and 1515; the international court of Justices 9 July 2004 Advisory opinion.


Now you tell me, if you were one of those people who lost their land/loved ones due to the zionist movement, would you support those who fought against the zionists, like Hamas, Hezbollah and Saddam at one point?

I know if those Zionists wanted California as their Jewish Homeland, and wanted to kick out all Californians who have the legal right to live there; I know damn sure that every American would be outraged.

Let me know if you want to know anything more specific, this is my specialization.wow. I didn't realize all that about the Jews coming out of Europe. Makes a lot of sense.

And as far as California goes.........:mamoru:

[Raisedshoulder]

One thing my girlfriend's uncle brought up was that he says even though Obama and Hillary says we should leave the war, we should vote for McCain instead and stay the 100 years. He was saying to me that if we withdrew now the country would collapse then some other dictator would takeover and blame everything on the US and could start more terrorist groups to attack the US. He does say that we should not have gone in but now that we're stuck we need to stay there. I originally wanted to vote for Obama but he has a point and I couldn't really think of any way to rebute what he said.

[Nakier]

One thing my girlfriend's uncle brought up was that he says even though Obama and Hillary says we should leave the war, we should vote for McCain instead and stay the 100 years. He was saying to me that if we withdrew now the country would collapse then some other dictator would takeover and blame everything on the US and could start more terrorist groups to attack the US. He does say that we should not have gone in but now that we're stuck we need to stay there. I originally wanted to vote for Obama but he has a point and I couldn't really think of any way to rebute what he said.

no chance of that happening , the country would split up

[tryfuhl]

Before the European Jews immigrated to Palestine fleeing the Holocaust and created gangs to kick out the indegious Arabs. Palestinans and their neighbors were Muslims/Jews/Christains, and still are to a certain extent. The Jews were Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. The new Jewish immigrants were Ashkenazi, who put down the other Jews and made them second and third class citizens, and they still are in the State of Israel today.

The displacement of 750,000 Palestinans in 1948 by Jewish Gangs has created 6.8 million refugees and their relatives today. These 6.8 million people live all over the world, many of whom live in the Middle East. This has spawned a just hatred of Zionist Jews who think they are more worthy than anyother human being. The Evangelist movement in the United States has supported these Zionist Jews and are the life blood of the occupation and denial of Refugees right of return, espoused in the 4th Geneva Convention and reaffirmed in the UN Security Council Resolution 242. The Zionists in Israel have created colonies in the land Israel has been occupying since 1967 and has displaced more Palestinians as a result of their land being stolen by the Israeli government. A violation of the 4th Geneva Convenion and reaffirmation in UN SC Res 335/ 446 and 1515; the international court of Justices 9 July 2004 Advisory opinion.


Now you tell me, if you were one of those people who lost their land/loved ones due to the zionist movement, would you support those who fought against the zionists, like Hamas, Hezbollah and Saddam at one point?

I know if those Zionists wanted California as their Jewish Homeland, and wanted to kick out all Californians who have the legal right to live there; I know damn sure that every American would be outraged.

Let me know if you want to know anything more specific, this is my specialization.


Indian Reservations

[trev ftw]

One thing my girlfriend's uncle brought up was that he says even though Obama and Hillary says we should leave the war, we should vote for McCain instead and stay the 100 years. He was saying to me that if we withdrew now the country would collapse then some other dictator would takeover and blame everything on the US and could start more terrorist groups to attack the US. He does say that we should not have gone in but now that we're stuck we need to stay there. I originally wanted to vote for Obama but he has a point and I couldn't really think of any way to rebute what he said.

That's why you bow out peacefully. Take the troops home, minus a few needed for immediate security, help rebuild roads/schools/hospitals for a year or so(and leave some troops behind for security detail) - after said year is completed, they all come home.

And I buy every one of them a pint. :oopsie:

[GFlem]

2. He would prevent the massive daily killings


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign